Metagame SV UU Metagame Discussion - The Indigo Disk

Melt Gibson

crude sorcery at best
is a Forum Moderator
With Dirge back in the tier, as well as Latios and Iron Crown still being huge, I think it’s about time to give Iron Hands another bite of the apple

:sv/Iron Hands:
lol. lmao, even.

:excadrill:
Genuinely exactly what this meta needed, good removal that fits on offense and something to help with CM Elec Latios. Sand is neat? But I feel like it's gonna be a bit fishy for sure. Lot of leeway on spreads since you can invest speed for post-Rapid Spin boosts and fuck around with the SpDef to hit different benchmarks for things like Latios, Torn-T, etc. Cool mon, like it a lot and glad we have it!

:skeledirge:
Again, exactly what we needed, but this time it's a good Unaware user. Genuinely not worried at all about a lot of threatening shit, including the ability to help against SD Scale Chomp (!!), but also not without counterplay, since we literally got the best possible check in Excadrill and things like Latios and such can just keep firing off Draco Meteors with 0 consequence unless Dirge spends its Tera. Helps out fat a lot though, which is pretty baller.

:deoxys-speed:
lol what the fuck are you doing here?? did you get lost??

Jokes aside, this is a neat little surprise that miiiight be a little broken? You have a ton of coverage options, and while you hit like a wet noodle without it, NP lets you crank out some pretty absurd numbers. Grateful for it at the moment though, good to have something faster than Greninja/Torn unboosted and also a non-Chomp Spiker that isn't absolute dogshit. You do have the struggle of getting absolutely fragged by priority, notably Lokix, but that's sometimes the only thing that can threaten you aside from hazard chip (if you opt to run Light Clay/Expert Belt/Life Orb or whatever else over Boots) since you're the fastest unboosted thing in the tier with ZERO speed investment. You also lack a real pivoting move, since you're not bulky enough to really get mileage out of Teleport and Eject Pack Psycho Boost only works once. Feels balanced for now. Wouldn't be shocked to see it go within the coming few weeks though.
 

sparrow

kacaw
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I think deo-s is a bit too good to be in UU.
It's only limiting factor, being frail, is far overshadowed by what it brings to the table.

The best set it can run by far is the all-out-attacking set. There are only a handful of viable switch ins, none of which enjoy losing their lefties/boots via knock off. Functioning as a breaker and cleaner is insane role compression, as a HO player, you'd be limiting yourself not running deo-s itself.

Furthermore, it does have the option to run hazard stack and screens.

I think deo-s is broken and at the least is over centralising. It should be considered for quick ban.
 
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Yay! Drops! I’m about a day late but boutta go over my thoughts after a few games in ladder.
:deoxys-speed: What are you doing here?? In the albeit small amount of games I have been able to play, in a good 2/3rds of them, someone swept with Deo-s, or broke down a defensive core with it. I’m willing to admit this is partially a skill issue, but the amount of times there should have been a switch in that works, and then there just wasn’t was too many. The movepool is too insane, and nothing outspeeding it unless scarfed or +1 otherwise REALLY hurts! In my opinion, all of this just combines to make me believe Deo-S should be considered for a quickban. A hasty decision, but why is this here?
:skeledirge: Welcome back! Sucks to play against only ttar when I used you, but even still it’s so nice to have a decent unaware user! I could be a bit less terrified of scale shot chomp, play around iron crown better, and more! So nice to see em back.
:excadrill: Guys, Not Iron Treads is here! Loving this being here, having a spinner in the tier again that isn’t weak to all of the top mons is extremely nice, and it’s so versatile too. Gonna be experimenting for sure.
 
New here, after the drop of my boy :Excadrill:, decided to come here to continue playing sand.

Gave the ladder a shot and I can say that Deo-S is broken af.

Tried Excadrill alongside true and tried :Tyranitar:/:Latios:/:Keldeo: core from past gens, instead of Pursuit trapping, I tried pivot Latios with Future Sight/Flip Turn and Band Ttar/Specs Keldeo. You can position Tyranitar or Keldeo against Latios checks and claim KO or force major damage in whatever dares to switch in with the power of Ttar/Keld and FS support. Excadrill cleans after the core wears down opposing mons.

I'm liking UU a lot tbh.
 
Deoxys-Speed Screens HO
:deoxys-speed::Garchomp::Bisharp::Ogerpon-Cornerstone::Azumarill::Latios:

I spent way too much time yesterday testing out different stuff for HO (Lead Exca for example), and eventually I settled on something like this.

:Deoxys-Speed: Screens Deoxys is consistent at getting up at least one of reflect/light screen due to its sheer speed. Taunt helps prevent opposing leads from setting their own stuff on the field. The last moveslot is honestly pretty free, so I decided to go with Teleport to ensure a safe switch-in to one of my mons (Other options could be an attack or Stealth Rock)

:Garchomp: Not much to say about SD Chomp except that its good. I opt for Stone Edge to deal massive damage to Zapdos/Mandibuzz, weakening them up for the rest of its teammates.

:Bisharp: This mon was recommended to me in UU Disc by QOB, and I've been surprised to see that it's not bad at all. The team does appreciate having a mon that can stop Latios in its tracks, plus it can be extremely bulky with the Eviolite + Screens combo. Throat Chop is neat for dealing with Torch Song from Dirge as well. I was debating whether to go with Tera Fire or Flying, and I opted for the latter to be able to deal with Garchomp/Excadrill in a pinch.

:Ogerpon-Cornerstone: SD Ogerpon-C is solid as usual. Sand being more common helps it, as it appreciates the Special Defense boost, and if you add screens onto that, it can snowball quickly. Horn Leech is my preference, although you can probably run Power Whip too. Same with Knock Off, which I use for the occasional Metagross/Jirachi (and item removal/being an ok neutral attack in general).

:Azumarill: Belly Drum Azu + Screens is tried and true. I'm still kind of unsure what the best EV Spread for Azu is, but in this instance I added some bulk, and gave it enough speed to outpace Skeledirge. Azu helps take care of Greninja/Keldeo, which are troublesome mons for the rest of the team.

:Latios: I needed a strong special attacker, so CM Latios feels like a good fit. The team also appreciates it shutting down most Keldeo. I went with STABS over Tera Elec simply because Excadrill is such a pain for Tera Elec.

This team can probably be optimized further, but this is what I have for now!

:cyndaquil:
 
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Monky25

is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor
Moderator
Hey everyone, we hope you are enjoying the tier shifts so far. The UU forum moderation team has noticed a rise in one liners across these last few days, and while we understand that they naturally arise from excitement for a new metagame, they also clog the thread a lot. We’ve already seen a few users post some one-liners lately, some more than others, but this is a general announcement to please limit the amount of one-liners in the metagame discussion thread. There’s a lot of potential discussion to be had about not only the new mons but also older mons that have gotten better or worse as a result of the shifts, and we would like to see fun, productive discussion taking place in this thread. We also have the simple questions simple answers thread to use for any quick questions.
 
Played a good amount to give some opinions about the new drops and some meta-shifts I have seen.


A very strong and positive addition to the tier. We now have a Rapid Spin user that doesn't completely blow allowing for more diversity in builds to support certain Pokemon or sets better, which was hard to do previously. Excadrill is much more threatening than Iron Treads thanks to SD allowing it to potentially get through Pokemon like Mandibuzz. Mold Breaker is so good with it letting you to deal with Washtom and Latios. It also has other uses like letting you OHKO Rockpon through Sturdy and beat Quagsire and Tera Skeledirge by ignoring Unaware. Sand Rush is also a decent alternative making it a scary cleaner, especially with LO. I do think you need to be running Rock Slide though over spin to get value out of your Sand turns and not be stonewalled by Zapdos. Good amount of diversity with standard SD or Spin/Rocks Lefties, SpD spreads, Sand Rush, Choice Scarf, and Lead. Easily the most impactful drop to me.


Skeledirge @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Water / Dark / Steel
EVs: 248 HP / 132 SpD / 128 Spe or EVs: 248 HP / 132 Def / 128 Spe
Calm / Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Torch Song
- Hex / Earth Power
- Will-O-Wisp
- Slack Off

Tried Skeledirge for a bit and I would say it is just okay. Not bad but also not insanely good. It is a pretty good check to stuff like Iron Moth and Iron Crown but both can muscle through it if the former is Tera Ground and the latter is under Psychic Terrain. For me, it feels a lot more Tera reliant to deal with the several boosting threats within the tier. Water felt nice to help with Keldeo, Greninja, and Azu. Dark helped on SpD sets to deal with Latios as Luster can be an issue + it helps with Deoxys and Crown under Terrain. Steel could probably be used for similar reasons while also resisting Draco. I tried Fairy but did not really like it aside from helping vs Chomp assuming you are Phys Def. All Tera types come with their downsides though of course. Nice addition to have back regardless.


Deoxys-Speed @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 140 HP / 96 Atk / 252 SpA / 20 Spe
Rash Nature
- Psycho Boost
- Thunderbolt
- Knock Off
- Recover

So DeoS is a weird one. I don't think it is broken in the sense that we have no switches to it because we do. You can pivot around it through Pokemon like Slowking, Tinkaton, Metagross, Mandibuzz, etc. The biggest problem is that pretty much all of its pivots really hate having their item removed as they either lack recovery outside of Lefties or now become weak to hazards making dealing with it long-term very difficult. AV users like Crown, Torn, and Azu just no longer become pivots into it. Most DeoS right now are 4 Attacks mixed with LO on ladder, which I would say is probably the best set or at least variations of it anyway. I've personally been using the above set with Recover to give DeoS more staying potential to counteract hazards + LO. I found Thunderbolt to be the best coverage to hit Mandi, Slowking, Empo, AV Azu and Torn + neutral vs every other Steel bar Excadrill. Excadrill taking half from Psycho anyway if it's not SpD. The Spread OHKOs other no HP DeoS after Rocks with Knock then Speed for other DeoS too. Rest in bulk.

Another massive thing with DeoS is it is faster than everything in the tier with no Speed investment. This just makes it an insane revenge killer, usually being an absolute pain for offense to deal with tbh. Whether you want Speed investment solely comes down to what you might need to creep as it can go as far as being faster than +1 Chomp. Thankfully it is slower than Base 108 at +1 but I do think it forces you to run prio or one of those scarfers if you want to reliably deal with it as this Pokemon has the most freedom when it comes to creating an EV spread for it. You can go max Attack so Knock melts AV Crown or Slowking, bulk to potentially live priority better, etc.

The final big thing is set diversity. You have AoA, NP, Lead, Screens, and potentially more. I have seen Specs and honestly, I can see Scarf + Trick being fine. Personally, I will be a little surprised if DeoS hangs around long-term in the tier especially when people start optimizing and experimenting even more with it. It can easily swing defensive counterplay especially if it ends up revealing NP. I am fine with it not being quick banned yet but I don't think it will end up being the healthiest addition to the tier.

Thoughts on other stuff:
Feels really good with being one of the sturdier DeoS checks and disrupting Sand, which is very popular on the ladder right now.
Psychic terrain got better with DeoS and that just removes its weakness to priority. Very annoying playstyle to play around.
Webs can be super annoying with boots being used a little less but stop running Bee so you can keep them up vs Drill.
Lil bunny feasts on these Sand teams
Still, an insanely good mon that didn't really get worse. Drill limits Tera Elec but +1 Draco still does a lot. Skele can kinda sit on Tera Elec but it does not take Dracos or Luster well. DeoS is a bit annoying for the CM sets though with having a strong fast Knock Off.
Still fine but definitely feels worse with Drill dropping. Will probably fall off a little bit.
Can run AV more again with Drill coming down so it gets better
It sucks stop using the mon. So easy to prevent veil with faster Pokemon or just limiting the turns by removing Clay before it is set. Sand everywhere also just makes it feel worse. Grimm and DeoS are far better.
 
how are you people currently countering chomp? (other than mandibuzz)
Defensively:

  • Zapdos does not care about Tankchomp and is decent into SD assuming you hit Hurricane. With Tera it can play around Scale and Edge to get it low.
  • Tinkaton walls sets that aren't running a third coverage move with Air Balloon.
  • Washer is bulky enough and with Tera can safely Wisp it.
  • Enam-T just walls sets lacking Edge.
  • Gweez simply hard walls most Garchomp as Iron Head is not that common.
  • Bronzong walls any variant of SD.
  • Exca with Balloon can revenge SD Chomp

Offensively:

These Pokemon all have priority access, which for some, Garchomp makes easier to revenge it as Scale Shot lowers Defense.


  • The first two are common Scarfers faster than +1 Chomp.
  • Moth is faster with Booster and can revenge a weakened one with Dazzling.
  • Ogerpon is faster with Tera and can even Encore it into SD.
  • DeoS can EV to outspeed Chomp at +1 if you want.

There are some other offensive options but a lot of dealing with Chomp can simply just come down to positioning and using Tera well if needed. Hopefully this helps you out.
 
I don't know how tournaments affect tiering so if there is a tiering survey any soon, how long would it take?
I personally think Iron Crown warrants some sort of action, i don't rate its psy spam sets that highly but it's stored power sets on veil teams are pretty dangerous and with the right tera it can easily pull of sweeps pretty easily, especially alongside a base typing with a sand and toxic immunity making it hard to damage passively.
Phazing can be used but the only really good phazer against iron crown that i know of is garchomp and maybe mandibuzz but the latter generally prefers not running it because it loses utility that way.
 
:wo-chien:
Since it was ranked so high, I tried using it and found it to be unimaginably strong, so I would like to mention it here.
Wo-Chien @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Tablets of Ruin
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Leech Seed
- Stun Spore
- Knock Off
- Foul Play
・As you know, with extraordinary bulk and unique typing, check pokemon like garchomp and greninja, and torment your opponents with knock offs and leech seeds.
・Stun spore is an uncommonly powerful move, and it greatly reduces its function by paralyzing tornadus therian or lokix.
・The 5hit sd scale shot can be 2HKOed with max HP only, so no def investment is needed unless you need to withstand more powerful attacks.
Untitled 62 (pokepast.es)
The team of wo-chien. keldeo‘s tera fairy is also a good alternative which can beat latios.
 
I don't know how tournaments affect tiering so if there is a tiering survey any soon, how long would it take?
I personally think Iron Crown warrants some sort of action, i don't rate its psy spam sets that highly but it's stored power sets on veil teams are pretty dangerous and with the right tera it can easily pull of sweeps pretty easily, especially alongside a base typing with a sand and toxic immunity making it hard to damage passively.
Phazing can be used but the only really good phazer against iron crown that i know of is garchomp and maybe mandibuzz but the latter generally prefers not running it because it loses utility that way.
Honestly yeah, I've been using Iron Crown on a screens HO team with weakness policy, knocks from mons like Torn-T, Oger, and the occasional Azu just bounce off under screens. It can even set up on Garchomp, albeit with Tera Fairy. Most special mons just become setup food.
 
Honestly yeah, I've been using Iron Crown on a screens HO team with weakness policy, knocks from mons like Torn-T, Oger, and the occasional Azu just bounce off under screens. It can even set up on Garchomp, albeit with Tera Fairy. Most special mons just become setup food.
I think action on Iron Crown would be more warrented if chomp gets banned. As of now when I see Crown, I just send in chomp and it either dies, or gets low enough to be easily be revenge killed. Without Garchomp in play, +1 iron crown can beat anyone most of the meta not named skeledirge, who still hates psychic noise, but for now its mostly fine imo
 
I think action on Iron Crown would be more warrented if chomp gets banned. As of now when I see Crown, I just send in chomp and it either dies, or gets low enough to be easily be revenge killed. Without Garchomp in play, +1 iron crown can beat anyone most of the meta not named skeledirge, who still hates psychic noise, but for now its mostly fine imo
stored power also kills dirge unless it pulls a tera dark out of its ass

iron crown is way to easy to use yall, i have negative brain cells and I still pull off wins because -1 knocks from torn-t behind screens does 10% and in 80% of games I win with just agility + wp proc. You tera fairy in Mandibuzz's face and pray that you hit your focus blasts because if your crown does die that'll probably be why.
 
I don't know how tournaments affect tiering so if there is a tiering survey any soon, how long would it take?
I personally think Iron Crown warrants some sort of action, i don't rate its psy spam sets that highly but it's stored power sets on veil teams are pretty dangerous and with the right tera it can easily pull of sweeps pretty easily, especially alongside a base typing with a sand and toxic immunity making it hard to damage passively.
Phazing can be used but the only really good phazer against iron crown that i know of is garchomp and maybe mandibuzz but the latter generally prefers not running it because it loses utility that way.
The big issue with Iron Crown is that there is just so much counterplay to it, and you just have to be active to shut it down. A big thing is to not trigger WP for no reason, because that is the quickest way to get swept. Only trigger the WP if you are sure that you can either secure the kill or kill it with a follow-up mon (usually a prio attacker). Usually Iron Crown's first click is almost always gonna be agility, and thus it's not immediately threatening big ohkos, so use this window to cripple it. There are a lot of mons capable of defensively checking it. Skeledirge coming in as early as possible is really hard to break through, with Iron Crown needing at least +8 total worth of boosts to out damage Dirge's slack off. But that much boosting is required just to break even against slack off. Dirge can come in and apply a burn, let the burn chip you down, and then hit you with a hex right before dying. This stalls out your veil/screens and brings you within range of some prio attackers notably Azu and Lokix. You can also reliably cripple Iron Crown with para, forcing them to spend more turns clicking agility (and less turns clicking calm mind), and also allowing full paras to waste setup turns and also sometimes stop Iron Crown from taking a Ohko during it's sweep, allowing you to ko it back if screens have run out. A notable combo is para + Sand Rush Excadrill, which garuntees that you will have an opportunity to outspeed it for a ko, as Excadrill with Sand Rush active is faster than paraed Iron Crown at +6. On the topic of Sand Rush, let's talk about Mr. Sand Stream. Iron Crown at +4 has a less than 50% chance to ohko Ttar, and Tsar threatens it with either a para from twave or phasing from dragon tail, with the para coinciding really well with Sand Rush Excadrill, and phasing just stopping the sweep. Ntm, if screens have ran out, Ttar can just threaten an ohko with knock. The other dark mons are also pretty good at defensively checking it. Funny enough Greninja takes these Tachyon Cutters even better than Tear, with +4 Iron Crown only having a 31.3% of ohkoing it. Sadly our funny frog is only a threat back after screens have run out, being able to take out Iron Crown with Dark pulse + Water shuriken. Mandibuzz is actually the weakest defensively as +4 Iron Crown has a 70% chance to ohko it, but you can opt to run whirlwind to phaze out the Iron Crown and stop the sweep. I just realized I yapped a ton, so maybe later, I can go over more Iron Crown couterplay.
 
The big issue with Iron Crown is that there is just so much counterplay to it, and you just have to be active to shut it down. A big thing is to not trigger WP for no reason, because that is the quickest way to get swept. Only trigger the WP if you are sure that you can either secure the kill or kill it with a follow-up mon (usually a prio attacker). Usually Iron Crown's first click is almost always gonna be agility, and thus it's not immediately threatening big ohkos, so use this window to cripple it. There are a lot of mons capable of defensively checking it. Skeledirge coming in as early as possible is really hard to break through, with Iron Crown needing at least +8 total worth of boosts to out damage Dirge's slack off. But that much boosting is required just to break even against slack off. Dirge can come in and apply a burn, let the burn chip you down, and then hit you with a hex right before dying. This stalls out your veil/screens and brings you within range of some prio attackers notably Azu and Lokix. You can also reliably cripple Iron Crown with para, forcing them to spend more turns clicking agility (and less turns clicking calm mind), and also allowing full paras to waste setup turns and also sometimes stop Iron Crown from taking a Ohko during it's sweep, allowing you to ko it back if screens have run out. A notable combo is para + Sand Rush Excadrill, which garuntees that you will have an opportunity to outspeed it for a ko, as Excadrill with Sand Rush active is faster than paraed Iron Crown at +6. On the topic of Sand Rush, let's talk about Mr. Sand Stream. Iron Crown at +4 has a less than 50% chance to ohko Ttar, and Tsar threatens it with either a para from twave or phasing from dragon tail, with the para coinciding really well with Sand Rush Excadrill, and phasing just stopping the sweep. Ntm, if screens have ran out, Ttar can just threaten an ohko with knock. The other dark mons are also pretty good at defensively checking it. Funny enough Greninja takes these Tachyon Cutters even better than Tear, with +4 Iron Crown only having a 31.3% of ohkoing it. Sadly our funny frog is only a threat back after screens have run out, being able to take out Iron Crown with Dark pulse + Water shuriken. Mandibuzz is actually the weakest defensively as +4 Iron Crown has a 70% chance to ohko it, but you can opt to run whirlwind to phaze out the Iron Crown and stop the sweep. I just realized I yapped a ton, so maybe later, I can go over more Iron Crown couterplay.
phazing is definitely the best way to deal with crown and setup sweepers in general. As someone who plays HO in current UU meta, getting phased is hell since you dont have instant power of specs/band
 
Iron Crown at +4 has a less than 50% chance to ohko Ttar, and Tsar threatens it with either a para from twave or phasing from dragon tail, with the para coinciding really well with Sand Rush Excadrill, and phasing just stopping the sweep. Ntm, if screens have ran out, Ttar can just threaten an ohko with knock. The other dark mons are also pretty good at defensively checking it. Funny enough Greninja takes these Tachyon Cutters even better than Tear, with +4 Iron Crown only having a 31.3% of ohkoing it. Sadly our funny frog is only a threat back after screens have run out, being able to take out Iron Crown with Dark pulse + Water shuriken. Mandibuzz is actually the weakest defensively as +4 Iron Crown has a 70% chance to ohko it, but you can opt to run whirlwind to phaze out the Iron Crown and stop the sweep. I just realized I yapped a ton, so maybe later, I can go over more Iron Crown couterplay.
Your calcs here are not good. At least with the set I've been running, Crown's got better numbers than all of that. Offensive Ttar needs Choice Band or prior chip to OHKO even without Veil, and is OHKO'd by a +2 Tachyon Cutter in return. Mandibuzz has a chance to get OHKO'd when Crown's at +3 never mind +4. Bulky Ttar narrowly avoids a OHKO at +3, but it's still guaranteed at +4. Greninja has an ~80% chance to get OHKO'd at +4. Dark-type beatdowns and Dragon Tail phazing can be avoided with Tera Fairy. Skeledirge's matchup vs Crown is very set-dependent. If Dirge has already gone Tera Fairy it just loses. Sets that aren't Tera Dark or Steel can be boosted past, even if just barely, under Screens/Veil if Crown uses Tera.

That's not to say counterplay doesn't exist. Strong priority obviously is good, given Crown's tendency to purposefully get heavily chipped. Tera Steel Tankhomp, Bulky Ttar, and Mandibuzz can all potentially live a hit from +3 and phaze or kill it. +2 Eq from SD chomp OHKOs without Veil/Screen support. So does a+2 Knock Off from Ogerpon. Sand Rush Excadrill and Scizor can survive a Stored Power after WP + Agility, and threaten a lot of damage in return, with drill also outspeeding. Taunt or Encore users can throw a wrench in the setup, especially with how predictable it is. Metagross kills Crown and invalidates Veil/Screens HO as playstyle. Chansey beats Crown on stall.

As a mediocre player Veil HO player who can't get out of midladder I can for certain that Iron Crown is strong, and it's by far the most likely mon of mine to runover a team all by itself. That being said, it's not that hard to play around if you know it's coming, so I'd be hesitant to call it broken, at least as of right now. Maybe keep an eye on it if Chomp gets banned, because that's one of the bigger counterplay options that I've seen.
 
Honestly, if Chomp gets banned Crown's definitely going to be on the chopping block. Oh well, that's the fourth threatening setup sweeper in UUBL if it gets banned.
 

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